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PostSubject: Help, Anyone?   Fri Jun 20, 2008 1:06 pm

Hi guys, i just want to know where you guys meet together, or if you have regular sched of eb.

I really want to participate and learn from you.
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ibler



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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:29 am

Hi shutter! Welcome to the forum!

So far we have only done 1 EB. But the forum is open all the time! You can even ask questions like ... "what's your favorite color?" Just dont be surprised if you get an answer in cmyk or cie values and pantone numbers! Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Sat Jun 21, 2008 9:33 pm

Thanks Ibler,

I just want to ask a simple question of color management with regards to some vendor of proofing software like EFI and kodak.

1. The practice of profiling the press and use the profile to produce the proof, is it ok? if so, how can we achieve the ISO**** that we want to attain?

Thanks
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Sat Jun 21, 2008 11:53 pm

Welcome aboard, Shutter! You call this a simple question? hahaha....To be honest, I think color management is an ultra mega deep subject.
Anyway....

Regardless of which proofing software we use, we all know that the press profile will be our source when we print to our proofer. The rule of thumb is that our proofer profile (destination) should have a bigger gamut than our source.

If we regularly linearize/edit/tweak or reprofile our proofer, then our proofer should be accurate and predictable....for a particular paper.The question is.....do we have a press profile that matches ISO?

Meaning, did we create our separations accdg to the documentation (ie TVI, TAC, GCR, RIP compensation curves, etc...)?

If we do, then with the correct rendering intent.....we can now confidently use it and print it on our calibrated proofer provided we print on the same paper used to create our proofer profile.

With proper lighting on the press (D50), and with a 'lil help from above, our proofs should closely match the press output......of course WITH SOME VARIATION.

Btw, hope you could tell us more about yourself.

Warm regards from Saudi Arabia.

PS: Sir Ibler, bumabagyo ba diyan sa Cebu? Sa amin sa Bacolod Signal #2 daw eh.
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Sun Jun 22, 2008 4:10 pm

Thanks sir Larry, anyways, Im aware that we need to profile the press for the proofer to simulate what the press can do. But if we want print with ISO standards.

Do we need to apply compensation curves on the rip to match ISO?
Is it applicable on every press Machine by just compensating the curve?

Thanks again sir!

PS: Sir Larry, I run a small color separation company in Makati and We have a small printing company here in Manila (family owned). By the way, Im a Photographer.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Sun Jun 22, 2008 6:45 pm

Shutter wrote:
Thanks Ibler,

I just want to ask a simple question of color management with regards to some vendor of proofing software like EFI and kodak.

1. The practice of profiling the press and use the profile to produce the proof, is it ok? if so, how can we achieve the ISO**** that we want to attain?

Thanks

Putting it into practice or put in place Color Management in your system is the Best solution.
Achieving the ISO is standardizing your press and the whole workflow.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Sun Jun 22, 2008 11:10 pm

Hi Shutter. I'm a professional photographer too...well....sort of. I use a 1.2 mega pixel from my old Nokia. (lol!)

Anywho, regarding applying compensation curves.....yup, yup,yup....you will need to activate it in the RIP. But get hold of the ISO documentation first so you'll know the tonal value increase (dot gain) required for a particular paper type. These TVI values from ISO will be your destination. Your source TVI is what you've measured on your press.

But remember that compensating these curves in the RIP only takes care of your tonal values.....and not your color.
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:59 am

Thanks Sir Larry, can you guide me step by step on which software to use so it wont be to costly for me investing on software that i wont be using.

Here's my list of measuring device
Eye One Publish
D19c for the press
Gretag film densitometer
Monaco Profiler (software)

Harlequin Rip running CTF ( hope you're familiar with this)
If you think i still need some measuring device pls. advice.

Thanks Sir

(PS: do you have Yahoo Messenger Account?)
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:24 pm

May We know the Name of your Colorsep in makati. I am Working in Makati along P.Tamo. near Makati Cinema Square
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 1:36 pm

Shutter wrote:

Here's my list of measuring device
Eye One Publish
D19c for the press
Gretag film densitometer
Monaco Profiler (software)

Oh My! You have a lot of stuffs, you have firepower devices. It is really unfortunate if you are not using or maximizing those instruments. Is your film densitometer model is DII or the Frog type? Do you have proofer? what printer and software rip?
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 2:31 pm

Hi Billy, Im using ICfilm densitometer by gretag. What company you are working with? and where in pasong tamo?
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:06 pm

Hi Shutter.

Add a plate reader and you'll have everything needed. Btw, Billy might be able to help you personally if he finds the time.


Last edited by larrysison on Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 4:28 pm

Hi sir Larry, is it ok if i use euclidean dot?

Anyways, everything you mention is my daily practice. I always keep my film linear. As suppose to plate, im getting some dotgain, is it ok? I hope you're here so you can show me personally how it's being done by a PRO. (hehehe). I'd also like to meet sir Billy. Sayang lang di ko inabutan ung EB nyo! Sir Billy ano bang contact No. mo?
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:16 pm

Ooop, I deleted my earlier post. Sheesh! Anyway, Shutter,

If you have a linear film, expose it on the plate....you will have dotgain! Maybe you'll get about 4 or 5% gain in there. That's okay. We're concerned with the Absolute dotgain of your process....meaning, Linear film+plate gain+ press gain.

That's Chapter 1.

Chapter 2, Create a new curve in Calibration Manager and enter your press dotgain (absolute) in your RIP. Save this Curve as Shutter Press.

Chapter 3, Create a new curve for ISO.
For postivive acting plates:
CMY 40 = 53%; 80 = 90.7%
Black 40= 56%; 80 = 91.5%
Click Extrapolate, Click Smooth
Save As: ISO TVI

Chapter 4, Go to Page Setup and activate the ff curves:

Your linearization Curve;
Intended Press: ISO TVI
Actual Press: Shutter Press

Chapter 5, Apply all 3 curves on your live job and VOILA!!!! Your film is NOT LINEAR anymore! End of story....

Now, let's Celebrate! cheers


Last edited by larrysison on Mon Jun 23, 2008 9:47 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ibler



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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:33 pm

Sir larry!

the eye of the typhoon didn't pass through cebu fortunately. but it certainly brought with it gusty winds. it also brought with it heavy rains.

but it's put now. the sun is slowly shining.


Shutter:
Great tools! just a few more techniques from the experts here and you're good!
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 5:56 pm

Thanks Sir Larry

Im lost on this part sir
Chapter 2, Create a new curve in Calibration Manager and enter your press dotgain (absolute) in your RIP. Save this Curve as Shutter Press.

which tools to use? Do I need a software for this or just the Harlequin rip (Genlin tool will do)?

I know how to apply it though. I just dont know how to get that dotgain curve on the press.

Pls. advice again sir
TY
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:08 pm

No prob, bro.

After calibrating the press, you need to measure the dotgain of your ink...on your paper....for cmyk patches 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 90%.

You will use on the press the following:

A black back with L* value of 15-27;
A reflective densitometer with Polarizing filter

Run your job with ink densities that will give you the Best Delta E.

Measure your samples the next day when it's dry.

Average your results, and enter your measurements in the RIP by creating a new curve in the Calibration Manager. Name this curve as Shutter Press, or Roland 200, or Heid SpdMstr 120, etc....
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:35 pm

Wow, Im really lost on this part. I hope you are here sir. I'll try to contact sir Billy and ask him the same question.

Thanks a lot

When are you coming home sir Larry? sunduin kita hehehe
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Mon Jun 23, 2008 7:40 pm

Shutter, di ba may spectrophotometer ka?

Kindly measure the L*a*b* of your C100 M100 Y100 K100, Red, Green and Blue, and your paper white (C2S, or matt).

PM me the values and I will tell you your Delta E. We will know how far you are from ISO.

From here I can tell you whether you need to add, or reduce any of your CMYK.

I'll be home either December or March and will audit one printing plant as soon as I arrive. I will be in Manila for about 5 days lang and almost all the time nasa press ako. Maybe you would want to hop in so you could see how it is done. It'll be fun!

As for now, I'm sure Billy will be able to help you.
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:46 am

Forgot to mention that your Monaco is a powerful profiling software. Ok na yan. Same goes to your Harlequin. Plate reader na lang kulang mo.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Tue Jun 24, 2008 10:03 am

D19C has a function of reading AM plate dots but not as good as the IC plate Reader OR PLATE SCOPE
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PostSubject: Re: Help, Anyone?   Tue Jun 24, 2008 5:04 pm

You're right Billy, it's not as good as a video-based plate reader.

But to our friends who are not aware of this, the measurement error of densitometers vis-a-vis a planometric device can be great.

It's always safe to read our plates with a real plate reading device. As soon as we get a 50=50% reading on this, then we get our densitometer and measure the same patch on the plate.

Chances are this is NOT going to match. So we have to set our densitometer and change the N-factor value. We change the value from 0 to 1, or even higher....while measuring the same 50% patch every single time we change the N-factor.

Once we get 50=50% reading on the densitometer, then it matches the plate reader. So, we have to use that N-factor value from now on every time we measure plates. But turn this OFF when you start measuring on paper. Only use this when measuring plates.
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