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 Helping the printers in the Philippines!

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PostSubject: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Sat Nov 15, 2008 12:19 pm

Are you one of those traditional printers who gets the job, rely on your operators poor skill and deliver it crossing fingers that it wont get rejected? Did you ever question yourself how it's being done by the big printers or what's the industry standard for print? Have you encountered digital proofs not matching your print in solid and tones?

Triune Graphix Corporation is a color separation company who want's to help printers in the Philippines achieve quality print base on ISO 12647-2. To tell you honestly, we are not certified by the said organization. We just don't have the money to do that. But we can assure you that we can perfectly deliver what it want's to achieve.

Why are we doing this? Our goal is to have a group of printers who will share the same passion in printing base on ISO 12647-2. We are looking for those who can't afford to be certified but wants to be compliant.

What we can do?

1. We can help you to become a quality printer
2. We can suggest to you many process in printing to help you become repeatable. (very important)
3. We can provide you color separated film or plate that characterizes your press and targets ISO 12647-2.
3. We can help you understand color management and how it affects your print
4. We can provide training for your graphic artist for file delivery
5. We can help you achieve ISO 12647-2
6. We can help you eliminate errors in print.

As a press owner, we should not rely merely on our operator's skill. The key to a quality print depends on how willing you are (press owners) to control the process. I know this will not be easy for those printers who is into traditional way of printing, which is basically base on nothing. If we take time to understand this things, we can provide our clients ISO compliant proof which we can confidently match on our printing press.

Triune Graphix Corporation
817-4323 – 812-1473

Look for Ton 09193443125
Regards to my mentor Mr. Larry Sison


Last edited by Shutter on Sat Nov 15, 2008 9:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Sat Nov 15, 2008 4:08 pm

Hi Shutter. It's about time you make use of your measuring devices. I'm sure you'd be able to help many of our colleagues here especially those who could not afford to buy the expensive devices needed to achieve ISO quality level. Hope to see you mid of next year. Busy, busy, busy.
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CIECAM

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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:09 am

ISO discusses the processes in printing. This processes includes instruments and tools in the implementation. No tools, the implimentation becomes no implememtation at all. Using your eye in color judgement maybe a good option but not the best. The calculation of dots of a measuring device can not replace by the eyes in terms of accuracy. ISO is also about accuracy. Tools is very very important. It is very expensive, but think about the productivity and cost savings by minimizing wastage or spoilage in papers, films, plates the worst is you lose your client whenever they have known a better quality at the same price.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Mon Nov 17, 2008 11:21 pm

CIECAM wrote:
ISO is also about accuracy. Tools is very very important. It is very expensive, but think about the productivity and cost savings by minimizing wastage or spoilage in papers, films, plates ....

Madaming printers ayaw mag-invest sa training ng employees nila and most especially sa mga process control tools and measuring devices.

Meron factor dito ang edad ng print owner. Yung traditional way kasi ang nakasanayan nila eh....so medyo kabado sila pag meron changes na mangyayari.

Mahal nga naman talaga mag invest sa mga kagamitan...both software and hardware. These additional investment fall under the Cost of Quality (COQ).

Sa kabila naman meron din tinatawag na Cost of Poor Quality (COPQ). These are the expenses for our reworks sa film, plate and press, delays, rejects, electricity and overtime pay due to reworks. Moreover.....lost clients.

Kapag medyo lumalaki na ang annual COPQ mo compared to your COQ, then justified na ang pag upgrade sa mga modern na kagamitan and measuring instruments.

Sa tingin ko magbabago din ang ihip ng hangin kapag pumalit na ang mga anak nila to run their business. Kasi the younger generation are more confident sa digital workflow.

CIECAM wrote:
.....the worst is you lose your client whenever they have known a better quality at the same price.

AGREE! TUMPAK! MISMO!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:21 pm

Hi again all,

I have not been on the forum for some time. Too busy I guess. Now I visited the forum again and I was surprised to read the post of Shutter. As many of you know already we, APC, are working on ISO 12647 here in the Philippines (and the rest of Asia) already for some time. Recently I gave a seminar on the topic during the Forum for Asian-Pacific Graphic Arts Technology (FAGAT) held in Manila last month and during the All In Print in Shanghai. It is good to hear that there is a company in Manila which claims to help printing companies in Manila to print according ISO 12647. I embrace the idea, however I also have some questions and comments. It should be clear that printing according ISO 12647 deals with the complete process from the moment the digital file comes in to the moment the printed sheets leave the press.

As Shutter stated, Triune Graphix Corporation is a color separation company. I wonder how a color separtor can help printing companies to solve their printing problems? It requires some experience and knowledge in the printing process (especially the practical part on the press). Honestly I wonder if a color seperator is capable to do this. I do not doubt the knowledge on the prepress part, but statements like "We can help you to become a quality printer"; "We can help you achieve ISO 12647-2" and "We can help you eliminate errors in print" are quite strong statements to make.

When you understand ISO 12647 and color management it should be clear that within ISO 12647 predefined color profiles are available which have to be used to calibrate proofing systems and monitors. At the same time the press has to meet the ISO requirements with regards to Lab values of inks and dotgain (or NDPC according Gracol G7) related to the standard paper types as described in ISO 12647. Why would I need "color separated film or plate that characterizes your press and targets ISO 12647-2". Should this not be the other way around? CTP (or CTF) curves should be based on the actual dotgain of the press you want to print on.

Many suppliers of proofing software have software which might give you an indication that there is something wrong but wil not give you any solution for the press and especially THEY CANNOT SOLVE PRESS PROBLEMS! I know from my experience in the region that certain software vendors claim they can but what they do is just recalibrating again and again and again. This is like working backwards. Standardization is meant to prevent and not to correct everytime again.

Like I already mentioned, I embrace the idea of helping the industry but this should be done on an objective basis and aiming on real solutions and not based on a wrong impression.

I would be more than happy to discuss this further and see where we could cooperate in order to provide the industry with the necessary knowledge and help. It is clear that many printing companies would be needing this help in prepress as well as in press.

Frits Beurskens
President
Asian Printmedia Consultancy Group Inc.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:37 pm

APC wrote:
Hi again all,

As Shutter stated, Triune Graphix Corporation is a color separation company. I wonder how a color separtor can help printing companies to solve their printing problems? It requires some experience and knowledge in the printing process (especially the practical part on the press). Honestly I wonder if a color seperator is capable to do this.


Hi Frits, I spoke with Shutter early on and both of us find your post informative. But your 2nd paragraph is rather rude and offensive. You seem to insinuate that Shutter has no experience at all on the press.

We agree with you on all counts that standardization in the press is key before any other improvement efforts (e.g. ISO 12647) are done and that one has to know which processes to improve both in prepress and press to keep the quality level within the ISO. Shutter knows that. Because....

SHUTTER IS A PRESS OWNER TOO. Please read Shutter's last paragraph. TRIUNE is not only a color separation company.....it's also a printing company. So, as a press owner for many years now he already knows this.

Furthermore, he has invested heavily on the necessary measuring devices and other process control tools to make sure each and every process is controlled.

With regard to his knowledge on the ISO 12647-2 and ISO 12647-7, I've been in touch with Shutter for quite some time now and I do not question his knowledge, moreover his ability to assist his fellow printers to uplift their quality level.

Shutter's post "We can help you to become a quality printer"; "We can help you achieve ISO 12647-2" and "We can help you eliminate errors in print" are indeed strong statements.

I don't see anything wrong with his post. Don't you think we should be happy that more people are capable of reaching the ISO level nowadays?

We hope it was never your intention to undermine or belittle Shutter's integrity. But somehow you have sent the wrong impression. No offense meant.

Guys, let us keep our Filipino Printers Forum message board healthy by being prudent. Because any unfortunate lapses can be very damaging at times and can negatively affect the credibility and the business of our colleagues here.



Regards.
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Mon Nov 24, 2008 9:36 pm

Hi Larry (and Shutter of course)

I am glad to read your reaction on my post. You are right in assuming that I do not want to undermine or belittle the efforts of people trying to help the industry. It was merely meant to trigger a new and constructive discussion on ISO 12647. As already mentioned in some earlier discussions on this item there are a lot of people in the Asian region using ISO 12647 standardization for other purposes than it is supposed to be. This is always done under the umbrella of “helping customers” but in fact it is just done to sell software or proofing systems to printing companies without any real intension (or capability) to help these companies to achieve a correct standardized process. We also encounter a lot of people pretending to know and understand the principles of ISO 12647 who in reality do not understand things correctly and therefore spread the wrong information. These practices are making the work of people like you (and luckily also Shutter) and myself more difficult than it should be. We as APC always have to explain why our way of implementing is longer or more expensive or more complicated than the “solutions” of these people trying to sell their products or pretending to have “short cut solutions”. I do not know Shutter nor his company (at least I think) and would not want to criticize his work but just wanted to make sure that the things which are mentioned in the post are based on the ideas we all share.
Investing in software, equipment and tools only is not enough but it is also important to educate the people in understanding the process they go into and help them to implement controls and procedures.
I might have created the idea that I criticize Shutter or his efforts, but it is more a request for conformation of the correct way of implementation of ISO 12647. My offer to discuss this and see where we could cooperate in order to help the industry should already have given you and Shutter the idea that I do recognize the work of Shutter. If I would think that Shutters’ intension would be wrong I would have asked him to contact me for an update on ISO 12647 Wink
We recently got in contact with a European company which offers a tool to analyze the printing process on the press and compare that to the ISO 12647 standard. This is the only software I know which is giving real information on the press result and which can help companies to improve their press performance. Maybe we can offer interested companies a free analysis of their press performance compared to the ISO 12647 standards. I guess that would be in line with our efforts to help the industry to improve.

And don’t worry about being direct. It is better to discuss things open and direct than being indirect without being honest.

Regards
Frits
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Wed Nov 26, 2008 6:53 pm

Hi everyone,

I hope everybody won't look at this as an argument or some sort of a fight of who's better and who's not. We all know that this forum has no room for this things. I suggest to all the readers of this thread to pick up all the good things you can and not the things we say to each other personally. I pay much respect to all my friends here, the moderator and the Gurus of this forum.


To Frits

Well honestly, I was offended by the words you said. It is not the words I expect to hear from a guy at your level. I am not selling anything (Software, Inks or Printers etc…). I hope you understand why I feel bad about it. We can have a constructive discussion without having to say those words.

I’m under the wings of Sir Larry Sison so you can be rest assured that I share his ideas.

I agree with you that there's a lot of variable in the press that we need to consider before we calibrate our press to ISO 12647-2. And keeping it to behave in a stable manner is the goal first before targeting any standard in printing.

I have one story to tell you Frits. A few months back, one of my client shows interest in ISO 12647-2. This guy doesn’t know anything about the process. But I salute this guy for his willingness to keep his press optimized at all times (he has a 30+ year old Heidelberg Sline). He attended the last Forum for Asian-Pacific Graphic Arts Technology (FAGAT) and one of your seminar about fountain solution which I believe you and Globis is the organizer.

Just last week, he told me that after attending seminars and all. He’s still confused on many things about the process. I started explaining to him to the best of my knowledge, in tagalog, little things about file preparation, color management, calibration of press to ISO, process control and the importance of enhancing the knowledge of the operator. We even share tools and reference sometimes.

Just this morning he called me and said that he started to enjoy what you shared in FAGAT and finally understood what you’re really trying to say.

You know what Frits, the real challenge right now for me is how will I be able to help my clients that doesn’t have the capacity to invest on tools and measuring devices. But here’s how I plan to do it. I’ll try to explain to them to the best of my knowledge the benefit of having a standard in printing. And while doing it, we will exchange ideas on how to eliminate variables in press to their capacity financially. So that when time comes, they are ready to invest on tools and training. At least, they will have something to look up to and they will know that such standard (ISO 12647-2) exist.

"Lest I say they know little and I know alot and what they’re doing is wrong and I’m the only one who knows what’s right and they turn a blind eye, leave the forum and growth is hindered and our goal unachieved. "

I know that you are very good in what you do and if you’re willing… maybe we could share the burden of imparting our knowledge in all aspect of printing. You could start by telling us what’s that tool that will help us analyze the printing process on the press and compare that to the ISO 12647 standard, GMG maybe? 

Im sorry if I gave such strong statements. Too excited about this thing I guess!

Regards
Ton
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Wed Nov 26, 2008 7:52 pm

Hello Ton (and all others too)

I am glad to hear that you are not a person who want to make use of the fact that others might not know enough on the topic of ISO 12647 and that you are sincere in what you do. If I have offended you, I have to apologize for that. It was not my intention to do so. It is good to hear that people can enjoy optimizing their process and start seing the value of it. I also can understand your excitment because this is what you need to help people to understand.
There are many stories which could be told on the subject of ISO 12647 here in the Philippines. Not all stories are that nice as yours and some should certainly not be placed on a forum like this. I would appreciate it if we could meet one of these days and just discuss where we could combine our kowledge. The printing industry in the Philippines needs the benifits of process control and upgrading the knowledge of the workforce in order to keep up with the other countries in the region.
The software I was talking about is not GMG (or any other prepress software) The software is called PrintSpec from a UK based company. We, as APC are intending to partner up with them in the Asian market. If you are interested I could show you more on this software and the principles behind it. It is designed to analyze the printed result and shows you how far you are away from a standard (ISO 12647, Gracol G7 , a in-house standard or any other standard). It would be too complex to explain it here on the forum. The main thing is that it os designed to analyze the press result. GMG software and other prepress based software is only doing this up to a certain extend but would not give you the necessary info on the printing process. For your information, APC is not selling this software. We plan to work together on projects to improve quality or achieving ISO standardization for companies who are going to work with this software.

Just give me a call or sent me a mail for a meeting

Regards

Frits
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:51 pm

Ton, APC has an excellent training module on press standardization (no relation to ISO). Good for print owners.
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Thu Nov 27, 2008 8:30 am

Hi everyone,

I found this thread very informative though no details was discussed.

The intentions of the three gentlemen here are still focused on helping the printing industry. Sir Larry and Shutter have been keeping in touch with each other about ISO processes ( from what i know). I know Frits and his groups for a long time ( but he does not know me) I started knowing him when he is with the other guy roaming around at summit media and helping the Velprint during the installation of the sublima ctp. In fact, I started wondering what they are doing during those times and I was a totally idiot about offset printing regardless of my decade experience in prepress and graphic softwares. Frits group had push me to learn more about ISO and techon technology through Globis Seminars, unfortunately I was not able to attend the FAGAT.

With the appearance of Sir Larry, he conducted an overview about ISO( sorry we do not have remembrance). It was good and eye opener for the printing industry. Still a badluck for me since there was no instrument or verifier to use that why I said from my other post, you need a tools and instrument.

Sir Frits is right in saying that you need to educate your staffs and Sir Larry just started it. Also with shutter had started implementing and gathering data.

I am very happy that a consultant in the person of Sir Frits, Sir Larry joined this Forum for one common goal and that is helping the Filipino Printers.

If there will be an EB coming. I would like to join so I can learn more from these two gentlemen.
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:09 pm

CIECAM, you said "I found this thread very informative though no details was discussed". hehehe. I like that one....sort of an oxymoron.

Anywho, everyone in here likes to impart their knowledge. And we also like to be corrected if we're wrong.

It's good we have presstech and APC reminding us to give equal importance to the condition of the press. If I were to use a project priority matrix....press standardization and operator training should top my list....after which I start ISO....finally continuous improvement (Kaizen).

I just wish Sir Billy of Canon could post more often as he has also contributed a lot in this forum.

Maybe in the next EB we could have something on digital file delivery, the most important issues to check on our presses, and a bit of ISO.
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PostSubject: Re: Helping the printers in the Philippines!   Thu Nov 27, 2008 4:14 pm

Hi everyone,

When people are willing to share knowledge, accept new or maybe different opinions and even willing to accept that they were wrong and have to change in order to improve then the industry can grow. Education is essential for an industry if it wants to grow. If you manage a Formula 1 racing team, you don't want to put a Manila taxi driver in your car. He probably will not finish the first lap and surely he will not be on pole position. How can you manage a graphic company when you just pick someone from the street without any knowledge of printing and let him run your multi million machine? If you want to improve or standardize (on whatever level you want) you need people who understand the process.
Training should not be seen as costs but as an investment. Costs basically is money you loose but an investment can be earned back. Investment in training will earn itself back, it is only difficult to calculate upfront.

But it is good to hear that little by little people start to realize and take action. Initiative like this forum and the discussions on this forum are a first step in the good direction. I hope more people will join the forum and start thinking and realizing.

Regards

Frits

PS CIECAM: You seem to know me well Smile How come I do not know you? Did we never met or do I just not recognize you with your forum name?
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