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icon22

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PostSubject: Tools for Color Management   Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:20 pm

What tools do I need to apply color management in my company.
I heard that I have to invest in expensive equipment and software.
Tama ba ito?
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sun Nov 04, 2007 2:29 pm

icon22 wrote:
What tools do I need to apply color management in my company.
I heard that I have to invest in expensive equipment and software.
Tama ba ito?

Sir, Don't look at the Tools as expensive, but look at it as an ROI tools.

I would suggest that you need to have a reflective Densitometer for your Press and for your Plate, Transmissive Densitometer for your Imagesetter, and a Spectrophotometer for calibration and profiling for your proofer, monitor, press. You can send a Private message (PM) for more details.
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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sun Nov 04, 2007 9:21 pm

Kung 2 1-color offset lang ang setup, kailangan ba bumili ng completong gamit?
Wala rin kaming imagesetter.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:41 pm

Pressroom needs at least a densitometer with plate reader for plates.
If you do not have creative studio with computers where you view your designs and artworks but only a press. But without a transmissive densitometer, how can you check the density and dot area of the supplied films?
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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 06, 2007 9:02 pm

just wondering...if I'd be having my film done outside or a service bureau..do i still need a transmition densitometer? Very Happy
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:57 pm

tin_man wrote:
just wondering...if I'd be having my film done outside or a service bureau..do i still need a transmition densitometer? Very Happy

If you want to check or double check the film characteristic and density.
Different films has different density requirements. like fujifilm requires 5.0D if i am not mistaken and Kodak is about 4 something.
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fotostuff



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 20, 2007 12:10 am

I guess i need a densitometer. Meron ba kayo alam na mura kahit 2nd hand lang po?
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 20, 2007 8:08 pm

fotostuff wrote:
I guess i need a densitometer. Meron ba kayo alam na mura kahit 2nd hand lang po?

Which one? transmissive or reflective?
Anyway, you can buy them from Globis, Inc or Ideal marketing.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Nov 21, 2007 11:37 am

Magastos talaga if you we want to control the whole process.

But, if I'm to choose just one device I would get an Xrite / Gretag SpectroEye. With this you can handle both color and tones.

Meaning I would know if our materials are according to standards. I can measure the L*a*b* of our paper, and our inks. Quality Control tool din siya. Example, you can reject the paper if it contains too much Optical Brightening Agents, kasi makikita mo yun sa SpectroEye.

During print run, I would know immediately if our ink film thickness across the sheet is giving us the correct color as specified in ISO 12647-2:2004. I would immediately know if my CMYK Delta E is within 5. And if not, it would tell me which ink to adjust and moreover by how much density should I reduce or add, so it could give me the best Delta E.

Additionally, I can also use this to measure my tones and compare it with the standards. I would know if my C40 M40 Y40 patch is printing C53 M53 Y53; and likewise if my K40 patch is printing K56, as required by the standards.

Kung ano man ang kulang, or sobra sa dots, then I can convey it to prepress to make the necessary adjustments.

My humble thoughts.
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billy

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PostSubject: Spectroeye   Wed Nov 21, 2007 4:39 pm

Larry,
I think you have firepower equipment with you. The spectroeye is one of my favourite spectrodensitometer. It can measure density including special color. Dot area , dot gain. As you have said, you can save jobs. It can be use for ink formulation, it has print and plate characteristics. Pantone, toyo, HKS, DIC support, you can measure plate too.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:53 pm

Billy, ma men! I mostly use the SpectroEye kasi I'm able to switch settings.

You may already know that when measuring densities of wet inks, PREFERABLY, we would want to set our devices to Status E, Paper white, and polarization filter ON.

One of my favorite devices is our Techkon densitometer. You can also switch settings to measure wet and dry prints. I also use an X-Rite 500 series pero good lang siya when measuring dry inks (Status T).

Pero, nothing beats SpectroEye talaga when your calibrating the press. But to profile it.....EYEONE Pro rules!

Billy, don't get hurt....but the EyeOne's iO robotic arm SUCKS! hahaha. Maganda lang tignan, pare. Okay lang gamitin ito kung limpak-limpak ang pera mo, and/or tamad yung gagamit. Ang bagal kasi, men!!! Yung slider pa rin ng EyeOne ang gamit ko when measuring test charts.

Syempre, bali wala ang hardware kung walang software....kaya ProfileMaker pa rin gamit ko. In fairness, okay din ang PrintOpen,ScanOpen,ViewOpen and also Monaco.

Billy, you're right by saying densitometers can be used to measure plates provided the plate-manufacturer provides us their N-factor. But, even with this....please proceed with care.

To linearize our plates, I use X-Rite ccDot (CTP15). To be honest, di siya impressive.....di pa rin ako masaya kasi once you rotate the device by a small bit, nagbabago ang readings! Mas okay pa rin ang icPlate ng Gretag. Ito ang totoong video-based plate reader.

To all, it's so nice to be part of this forum.


Last edited by larrysison on Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:39 pm; edited 1 time in total
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icon22

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:08 pm

Hi Larry!

napansin ko na ang location mo ay "Chandeliers". Saan bansa po ito?

Just curious and welcome to the forum. Very Happy
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:14 pm

Ngee! Pasensya na po kung ang location ko ay chandeliers. Di ko alam kung bakit napunta ang site password ko (chandeliers) sa Location field. hehehe. Babaguhin na po.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:46 pm

I said that it can measure plate too in the sense that we need a device for multiple purpose. I am amaze that you are also using IC plate reader, is it the advance? Print open is really good eversince, monaco? yes!

The purpose of the robotic arm is to get the optimum quality from a digital press, because way back 2004, where the io arm is still a prototype, it was discussed in bangkok that the Digital presses are on the Way, like HP indigo, igen3 of Fuji Xerox, Konica Minolta, Xeikon and lately Canon Imagepress. Another thing, it is to avoid the human intervention and it has a uniform speed in measuring the patches. That is why they made it an option. You are right that it is very slow but faster than spectroscan and it has better backing than the manual.

Do you use digital Presses now in Saudi Arabia? I was formerly working from Jeddah, House of Colors, A colorsep Company.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sat Nov 24, 2007 6:17 pm

Hi Billy. We don't own the iCPlate. I had the chance to use one when we audited a packaging company. I also brought our ccDot and was able to compare both devices. That's where we found iCPlate's superiority over the other.

Madami nang naka digital press dito. But not my company.
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fotostuff



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Dec 25, 2007 10:23 am

I checked at ebay there are many kinds and models of densitometers, ranging from 500 to 1500 dollars, used but in good working condition.
for example the x-rite 341 model is 550dollars. also available is 400-500series. also gretag macbeth d19C densitometer.

can u please advise me what model is good for a start up. i want to colormanage my press and prepress, but with a limited budget.
thanks
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Dec 25, 2007 11:07 pm

X-rite 341 is a transmissive densitometer - for film, the D19C is reflective densitometer - for press.
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fotostuff



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:03 pm

Many Thnks Billy.
I will start with xrite 341, then save for d19.
can i avail of your service to set up color management for my press and prepress?
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Thu Dec 27, 2007 8:19 am

fotostuff wrote:
Many Thnks Billy.
I will start with xrite 341, then save for d19.
can i avail of your service to set up color management for my press and prepress?


Yes Sir!
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charoth



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:16 pm

How much kaya ang price range ng mga densitomiters? Brand new or 2nd hand? Very Happy
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:23 pm

Hello Charoth,

Which type of densitometer? reflective or transmissive?
You can call ideal marketing or globis or sapura imaging.
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charoth



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Jul 01, 2008 3:27 pm

Hi Billy,

Thanks but what's the difference nung dalawa? Which is more appropriate to use for 1 color 2 color machines?
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:12 pm

charoth wrote:
Hi Billy,

Thanks but what's the difference nung dalawa? Which is more appropriate to use for 1 color 2 color machines?


Since we are talking about 2color or 1 color machines, then it is a reflective densitometer. It is more or less 100K depending on what are the capabilities you are looking for. Like Print characteristics dot gain and dot area. If in the future, you want to achieve like ISO, then I suggest a spectrodensitometer like spectroeye or techon.
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blanketman



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:30 pm

These are all good and well ideas and pieces of equipment. But bottom line is can you get the operator to use them. Use them properly, record the things he has done. No use spending 100,000 on equipment if it is going to sit on the console and look pretty.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Jul 02, 2008 3:45 pm

How true. Chances are the operators won't be using the device. Pero the device is more than 300K!!!! Kaya kinukurot ko na lang siya...ehehehe.

Seriously, training is important. Lastly, the operators should realize that the company has heavily invested on that device for the purpose of maintaining a certain quality level. And if they don't cooperate, then we have no choice but to reprimand them. It doesn't sound good....pero ganun talaga.

My thoughts lang po.


Last edited by larrysison on Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:38 pm

I remember one time when I was doing the training for the spectroeye somewhere in malabon near gov. pascual for a tin can printing. The owner said to his operator, If you don want to learn the instrument, then I will get someone who wants to learn but please submit your resignation today. Immediately, they touch the instrument and try to be familiarized.
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charoth



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Fri Jul 04, 2008 11:48 am

Hi Billy,

I will contact you pag nakaset up na yung maliit na printing ko ah.

Hirap kasi, my present clients sanay na sa quality ng 4 colors so Im doing everything para kahit papaano naman hindi ako mapahiya sa kanila
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Fri Jul 04, 2008 1:26 pm

charoth wrote:
Hi Billy,

I will contact you pag nakaset up na yung maliit na printing ko ah.

Hirap kasi, my present clients sanay na sa quality ng 4 colors so Im doing everything para kahit papaano naman hindi ako mapahiya sa kanila


Noted !
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blanketman



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:38 am

Color variation is your biggest enemy once you have obtained the correct color. A color management procedure and quality control are crucial. The operator must follow a laid down procedure or as has been said find someone who will.
As was said to me once customers comeback for quality they do not come back for rubbish.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sat Jul 19, 2008 7:36 pm

Quality Control is undoubtedly crucial if want to control our color and dot variation in the pressroom.

Maybe if we have time (and budget) we can do a little test para malaman natin kung okay ba ang process natin or not. Here's a humble suggestion.

As soon as we have set our ink densities that would give us a Delta E of 1-5 (or even 6) we check our color bars for its short and long term variation. We compare the densities from left to right of the cylinder..or even from head to tail.

Sometimes kasi okay na ang densities natin but over time, say after 500 or 1000 copies, nagbabago ang density kahit wala kang ginagawa. It's okay if it's within the limit, but what if it's more than your tolerance?

Of course the operator can monitor the run, and correct the inking from time to time by using a densitometer. But it's always wiser to correct the cause of the variation from the source.

Doing a Cp or Cpk study would allow us to see if our process capability is capable or not. Having a Cp of 1.3 or higher then our process is capable. Ibig sabihin wala tayong dapat baguhin sa system natin.

However, getting a Cp value lower than 1.3 ....eh mukhang kailangan natin mag isip-isip. We need to do a little investigation, preferably do a 'lil process mapping or some sort of root cause analysis so we could find out what's causing our long term variation.

Pag controlled kasi ang printing natin, the operator wouldn't need a lot of samples to measure kasi confident siya na capable ang makina niya and hindi ito magdi-drift once he has already set his ink and water to the proper levels.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:03 pm

blanketman wrote:
Color variation is your biggest enemy once you have obtained the correct color. A color management procedure and quality control are crucial. The operator must follow a laid down procedure or as has been said find someone who will.
As was said to me once customers comeback for quality they do not come back for rubbish.

That is why there is also called 'Color Tolerance'. Tolerance is about perciptibility and acceptability.
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Doctor Blade

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sun Oct 25, 2009 10:20 am

Does anyone has a field review on the X-RITE Intellitrax. Thanks in advance.
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CIECAM

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:55 pm

Doctor Blade wrote:
Does anyone has a field review on the X-RITE Intellitrax. Thanks in advance.

I have seen the software and hardware, i played a little using the small patches. it is very fast. I heard there are two installation on one printer.
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Doctor Blade

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Thu Oct 29, 2009 11:15 pm

CIECAM wrote:
Doctor Blade wrote:
Does anyone has a field review on the X-RITE Intellitrax. Thanks in advance.

I have seen the software and hardware, i played a little using the small patches. it is very fast. I heard there are two installation on one printer.

Thank you for the info sir.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:00 am

Just want to show some tools I find great for quality improvement and also for process control.

Shown in photo is Alex Dulay with our ccDot plate reader, EyeOne Pro spectrophotometer, Techkon densitometer Basic, Techkon SpectroPlate (THE BEST), and SpectroEye spectrophotometer.




Our press operators stopped using the densitometer and now they're measuring the color bar with the X-Rite EyeOne Pro hooked up on a pressSIGN Pro press control system. It's a manual process....but very easy. You can also use the pressSIGN with X-Rite Intellitrax (spectro) if you want everything automated.

I guess the densitometer days are over...in a year, or so. I consulted Madam Auring and looking into her crystal ball she predicts that scanning spectrophotometers will rule the press hall in the near future.

What do you think guys?


Last edited by larrysison on Sun Nov 01, 2009 6:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Alex Dulay



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Sun Nov 01, 2009 3:10 am

Oooops...dapat may talent fee yan.
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CIECAM

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 03, 2009 12:51 pm

larrysison wrote:
Just want to show some tools I find great for quality improvement and also for process control.

Shown in photo is Alex Dulay with our ccDot plate reader, EyeOne Pro spectrophotometer, Techkon densitometer Basic, Techkon SpectroPlate (THE BEST), and SpectroEye spectrophotometer.




Our press operators stopped using the densitometer and now they're measuring the color bar with the X-Rite EyeOne Pro hooked up on a pressSIGN Pro press control system. It's a manual process....but very easy. You can also use the pressSIGN with X-Rite Intellitrax (spectro) if you want everything automated.

I guess the densitometer days are over...in a year, or so. I consulted Madam Auring and looking into her crystal ball she predicts that scanning spectrophotometers will rule the press hall in the near future.

What do you think guys?

It may vanish or it will be integrated with a spectrophotometer just like your spectroeye. Instead of measuring one by one patch, it was converted to scanning mode. And as long as there are 1 color and two color machines, you still gonna need the densitometer. How about those who still does not about densitometer?. With the introduction of intellitrax, one will be more productive, and it may be integrated with the press and the operator will do nothing but adjust on the computer, just like digital presses he he he. Imagination ko lang po iyon na pwedeng mangyari.
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cancer69



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:08 pm

mga sirs!

ok din ba ang DensiEye 700 Portable Reflection Densitometer? Entry level daw ito according to Ideal Marketing. Feedback please mga gurus about this machine. Thank and Godbless.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 03, 2009 7:05 pm

Uy, kamusta na Alex.

Sorry di na ako nakatawag sayo nung nagbakasyon ako diyan sa atin sa Bacolod.

Naka-gamit na ako ng DensiEye 700. Okay sya, magaang, and basic lang ang function niya....more than enough for process control use.

Basta tanong mo muna kung Status E, and with Polarization filter. Kailangan mo ng polarization filter when measuring wet inks sa tirada.

And huwag mong tanggapin kung walang Certification ng calibration. Dun mo makikita kung bago ang calibration niya.

Regards.

Larry
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:00 am

Hi CIECAM. SpectroEye gagawing scanning mode....wow. Ang laking gulong kailangan nun...hehehe. Pag may solution na to make it work on 2 color machines sa tingin ko malaki ang future ng EyeOne for press use.

Yung price ng isang Intellitrax pwede ka nang bumili ng 2 EyeOne with matching 2 press verification softwares to PSO-ISO 12647-2. Real time yun kita mo ang L*a*b* ng tirada mo, dotgain, gray balance, etc. Plus, the software will tell the operators what to do per color, per ink zone, para ma-achieve ang ISO target. That means 2 presses agad ang covered.

Chat tayo minsan pag may time ka.
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CIECAM

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Thu Nov 05, 2009 9:02 am

Agree ako kay Sir Larry sa Densieye. Easy to use parang stop light. May green light which means pass and red light which means fail. O di ba andali.
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pinay_printer



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Mon Jul 26, 2010 1:10 am

wow...cant believe this....nakakatuwa po kahit pala di na ko magtraining sa printing press matututo ako dito sa forum....thanks po
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ar-khay



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Nov 23, 2010 8:24 am

mga kapatid saan po ba makakabili ng watermark paint? kailangan ko po kasi sa conduction sticker ng isang client ko. baka po may makatulong sa akin. maraming salamat po bounce
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blackg



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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Mon Jul 01, 2013 9:28 am

Hi Guys. Whats a better choice for spectrodensitomer? spectroeye or techon? Thinking on investing on one but dont know which. Thanks
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Mon Jul 08, 2013 3:10 pm

blackg wrote:
Hi Guys. Whats a better choice for spectrodensitomer? spectroeye or techon? Thinking on investing on one but dont know which. Thanks

There are some features of the other brand that is not included in the other brand.
I can give you a better answer if you can give us the features you wanted to include in the package.

There are also configuration each of the product like, standard, advance and premium.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Tue Jul 09, 2013 11:36 pm

Hello blackg,

Without going into details, both brands (X-rite and Techkon) make very good instruments. The question you should ask yourself is: should I go with a handheld or scanning device.

You may want to consider some automation if you're using..let's say...a Speedmaster perfector. In this case, the scanning spectro would be the best choice. Handheld devices are also nice to have if you're using a smaller press or if time is not very critical as the operator would be needing some time and effort to measure each patch.

Either way, your investments would end up in the trash if your people are not up to it. So, have your people trained. If the quality culture is there in your plant, you wouldn't need to force the operators to use it.

My thoughts.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: Tools for Color Management   Wed Jul 17, 2013 9:11 am

I agree with Sir Larry. The investment cost is very expensive, and you can not get the ROI up front. If your staffs are not willing to cooperate to use it.

But i remember one company who bought a densitometer warned his operator by saying " if you don't want to use the densitometer, please submit your resignation ".
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