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 WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?

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SuperTrooper

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PostSubject: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 1:45 am

a few months back, our company came across a competitor and they were telling our client their print job is according to the ISO 12647. ano ba talaga to?
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:55 am

Ey SuperTrooper.

ISO 12647 is the standards for the printing industry.

ISO 12647-1 contains the procedures, densitometer settings, etc...

ISO 12647-2 naman ay para sa commercial offset printing. Dito, sinasabi ng ISO how much ang dotgain mo sa 10,20,30...80,90...percent screen patches.

It also mentions yung colors (L*A*B*) ng mga process colors mo. Ex: how blue is your Cyan ink? What is the color of your paper? L*A*B* colorspace ang ginagamit dito when we talk of color. You will need to use a spectrophotometer to know these.

Different aim points for different paper types (Paper Types 1 to 5).

ISO 12647-3 deals with coldset printing. Pang diyaryo ito.

Meron din ISO for gravure and screen printing.

Commercial printer ba kayo? Are you using film or CTP? Halftone or Stochastic? Negative or Positive Plates? Web Offset or Sheetfed?

I can guide you step by step if you want to.

Regards.

Larry
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:35 pm

Larry, I really think we should get together when you're here in Manila next month.

Mmm, maybe you could even give a mini seminar on ISO for interested members of the forum. Is this idea feasible? Small group lang- maybe 5 or 6 members. Billy can also pitch in, if he's still around.

Anong say mo? cheers
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu Apr 03, 2008 12:55 am

Hi presstech. Sounds like a plan. Actually, wala naman sigurong kaso kahit sumobra sa 5 tao as long as kasama natin sa forum, di ba?

I can also give away some documentation as well as the bvdm media standards docu. We HAVE TO have this kasi heto ang rules of the game.

I can also provide the gang an excel file that can compare our colors to ISO. There we can see if our press gamut is bigger, or smaller than the standards. It will also guide us which ink to increase...or decrease para mag match sa ISO. Free of cost ito ha. Dala lang kayo ng USB flash disk.

Billy, the color geek, should be around kasi I have so many questions to ask him regarding color management. Wachatink, Billy?

Let's plan it...call ako diyan para I can also meet the rest of the motley crew.

3 days lang siguro ako sa Manila. Sana matuloy. Hope to see you soon!

Teka, saan ang venue?


Last edited by larrysison on Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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ibler



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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 04, 2008 12:01 pm

This sounds like a good plan! When is this happening? I can probably start saving up for the trip.

BTW Sir larry, if you ever drop by Cebu, give me a call!
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 04, 2008 8:44 pm

drop me a line when you are here bro. The honor is mine to meet you.
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 04, 2008 9:05 pm

We are already 4 for the EB. cheers
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 05, 2008 6:47 pm

Nabuhay si Billy! Hey ibler, larry lang po....hindi sir larry. Bagets pa po ako, noh? <grin>

My flight back to KSA is on May 16. Gadz! May 14 lang ako pwede. Will it be okay to have it on this day?
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 06, 2008 8:00 pm

Sorry guys, just too busy in preparing for a certification exam.
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SuperTrooper

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:06 pm

ty sa lahat nag-reply lalung lalo na kay larrysison, lalim yata ng alam mo. na-overwhelm ako sa mga sagot nyo. hirap intindihin.

larry, hope you can let us know the date you are available so i can request our management to spare us time to attend your talk. dapata tawagan ka na lang "guru". how did you get to learn this? ano ba yung company nyo?
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SuperTrooper

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 11, 2008 11:18 pm

meron po bang companies dito sa pinas na nagtuturo o nagbibigay ng service tungkol sa ISO 12647. under pressure ako sa boss ko for this project dahil yung major account baka tumagilid at mapunta sa competitor. ty in advance sa lahat tumulong.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 12, 2008 12:21 pm

Hi SuperTrooper. Magazine and newspaper company kami. In December 2006 we were the 2nd printing plant in the world to be ISO 12647-3 certified. The audit was done by Ifra.

I'm now in Bacolod (enjoying the beer) and after my vacation we should start preparing for the ISO 12647-2 certification from Fogra. Na-delay ang project kasi yung time na available kami di naman pwede ang Fogra. Pwede sila ngayon, eh ako naman ang naka-vacation.


Medyo may kalaliman ang ISO pero sa umpisa lang. I've had 2-weeks of training from Ifra on Color Management and 12647-3; and also had 5 days training on ISO 12647-2. Theory and actual press calibration ito from an UGRA-certified consultant.

Guru? hehehehe. Walang guru sa atin kasi we still learn from everyone's experiences, di ba?

Anyway, puwede nating gawin on May 14 mga 5pm. We will need at least 3 hours.

Teka, wala na akong laptop, grrrrrr...kasi inarbor ng misis ko. hehehe. Sana somebody can provide one. Once again, dala lang kayo ng USB so I can hand out some documents.

Presstech, saan ang venue?


Last edited by larrysison on Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:07 am; edited 2 times in total
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 12, 2008 11:20 pm

SuperTrooper, I read recently that you are fairly new to prepress. In order to understand ISO you may want to tag along somebody in your team who understands color very well. I mean somebody who knows L*a*b*.

If nobody's around then it's beneficial to start reading about color management, specifically L*a*b*, chroma, dotgain, and gray balance....kahit theory lang.

I'll try my best to make the presentation as layman as possible and also to start with a quick overview on how to read and analyze L*a*b* values.

At least when we begin our ISO thing, medyo hindi na tayo maliligaw. Otherwise we might need the whole day understanding color alone.

My thoughts only.
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 13, 2008 6:36 pm

Sir Presstek, saan nga ba ang venue?

I will try to Help just in case. I can have my presentation on fundamentals of Color before you present your ISO (kung papayag lang ang nakakarami) he he he. The evolution of Color space like macadams ellipse or maxwell equation is too tekey to tackle and it might more confuse the listener.
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:02 pm

Ok, we will set the schedule for the forum on May 14 at 5 pm. That will give us 1 month for preparation. I will make arraignments for the venue. Sagot ko na yon. Aray!

Larry, please check your pm inbox for my cellphone number. Text me so that I can call you. I already have Billy's number. Very Happy
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 13, 2008 8:47 pm

Excellent suggestion, Billy! We need to have your presentation before we go into the critical to quality parameters of the standards. Your presentation will serve as an eye opener for everyone. Dapat kasi lahat tayo should speak the same lingo kasi yun ang kalakaran sa ISO.
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fotostuff



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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Mon Apr 14, 2008 1:19 pm

wow. this is a very good opportunity for us to learn from the masters.
sali ako attend. thnks in advance
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 15, 2008 2:52 am

Thanks Presstech, I already sent you my mobile #. Hope you got it.

Anyhow, I'm now preparing our materials and myyy goodness....oh boy....I bet it's going to be a looong night come May 14. The thing is how do we squeeze 3 days topic into 3 or 4 hours? Every topic is interrelated that I couldn't decide which one to bump off!!! hehehe. Maaga pa naman eh....let's see.....

As of the moment, here's the plan:

Part 1: Intro on color (c/o Billy)
Part 2: Process Standards Offset (PSO - ISO 12647-2)
Part 3: Realworld CTF, CTP, & Press calibration

What do you think, Sir Fred and Billy? Any violent reactions? Very Happy
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 18, 2008 1:41 pm

For those who have reflective densitometers you can also bring them on May 14 so we can configure your device according to ISO.

Ang process standards for offset (PSO-ISO12647-2) kasi is composed of many ISO standards. This includes device configuration.
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GOR



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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:47 pm

I want to join sana but bka makagulo. Matagal na rin akong wala sa printing industry.

I have been involved in other industries ISO's.

I can seat in one corner and listen. Will I understand kaya ang discussion? Rolling Eyes
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Wed Apr 23, 2008 1:34 am

You are most welcome to attend, GOR!
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GOR



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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Wed Apr 23, 2008 11:22 pm

larrysison wrote:
You are most welcome to attend, GOR!

Maraming salamat Sir!
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ibler



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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:07 am

ako rin! can i just sit down and listen? I'm afraid i don't have knowledge on these topics.

I'm booking a flight already! Smile

see you all!
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:42 am

Hi!

I am making arraignments with PPTF to hold our May 14 forum at their training center. The only problem is that they have a seminar scheduled in the evening. .The training room is available during the daytime only, up to 4 pm. Is it ok to hold our forum earlier in the day? How about 9 to 12 in the morning or 1 to 4 in the afternoon?

If the earlier time is a problem, I will book in another venue. Basketball
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:46 am

Members who are interested to attend the Forum on Color Management and ISO 12657, as of today:

1. Larry
2. Billy
3. Presstech
4. Gor
5. Supertrooper
6. Tinman
7. Ibler
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:18 pm

I just talked with Larry. Due to his flight schedule, an earlier time slot for the forum is not possible. We shall go ahead with the original schedule of May 14 at 5:00 pm. I will post the meeting place later. bounce
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:59 pm

I think fotostuff is also interested.
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SuperTrooper

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:10 pm

ok talaga, mayroong libreng seminar na tayo. sige game, sali ako
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri Apr 25, 2008 11:58 pm

I just finished making the slides for PSO-ISO 12647-2. Medyo ngarag ang utak ko....hehehe. Next week ko na sisimulan yung isa regarding how to calibrate your prepress and press equipment to achieve ISO 12647-2 print quality. I think I need to unwind muna kasi nagdo-dotgain na ang paningin ko. Medyo tumataas na ang viscosity ng dugo ko and bumababa na ang pH and conductivity ng body fluids ko. Ergo....I need some alcohol! Good thing is....it's Friday night! May passes kay misis. <grin>. Have a lovely weekend, folks!
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APC

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 26, 2008 12:19 pm

Hello everybody,

I just registerd on this forum and saw your writings on ISO certification. We are based in Manila and are specialised in ISO 12647. In 2007 we helped 4 companies in Manila to get ISO 12647 certified and we provide trainign and seminars on this in the SE Asian region.
Mr. Larry Sison. It seems to me that you are well informed about ISO. Maybe we can meet when you are in Manila for a short discussion.
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 26, 2008 1:47 pm

Welcome to the forum, APC! This is great! Would surely hope to meet you when I'm there. Hope to see you on the 14th so we could have a more fruitful discussion on the subject. Btw, you mean to say there are already 4 companies in the PI having PSO certification? This is good news. May I ask who did the actual PSO audit (fogra, ugra, etc...)?


Last edited by larrysison on Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:27 pm; edited 2 times in total
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APC

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 26, 2008 2:14 pm

larrysison wrote:
Welcome to the forum, APC! This is great! Would surely hope to meet you when I'm there. Hope to see you on the 14th so we could have a more fruitful discussion on the subject. Btw, you mean to say there are already 4 companies in the PI having PSO certification? This is good news. May I ask who did the actual PSO audit (fogra, ugra, etc...)?

Hello Larry,
Yes there are 4 companies in Manila certified according ISO 12647. We did that through SCGM, which is the official Dutch certifying body for the graphic industry (www.scgm.nl). They are accridited for ISO certification like Fogra or Ugra. You can find the certified companies on their website. On the 14th I will be in Cebu for a project. When will you exactly in Manila? Btw. I think you still remember Caloy?
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 26, 2008 3:19 pm

Thanks for the info on SCGM. I will try to contact them because they might be cheaper to contract as compared to Fogra for PSO certification.

As of the moment Fogra is proposing a 2-part visit in our printing plant...it's just too costly kasi we have to shoulder their flights and hotel accommodation for every visit.

Sayang we could not meet this time. I'll be in Manila for only 2 days before I fly back to Saudi Arabia.

I'm still in touch with Caloy Gaston. He was my former boss and is actually my mentor, together with Mr. Boy Kitane.

Thanks once again.
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sat Apr 26, 2008 11:51 pm

Welcome, APC!
I am sure that the members of the forum will learn a lot from your posts. cheers
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:40 pm

Hello APC,

SCGM? 4 Companies? Is transprint included?

Something is ringing the bell that reminds me.

Please PM Me.
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:03 pm

billy wrote:
Hello APC,

SCGM? 4 Companies? Is transprint included?

Something is ringing the bell that reminds me.

Please PM Me.

For people heavily involved in digital prepress and color management, APC does ring a bell. Hehe!
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APC

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:09 pm

presstech wrote:
billy wrote:
Hello APC,

SCGM? 4 Companies? Is transprint included?

Something is ringing the bell that reminds me.

Please PM Me.

For people heavily involved in digital prepress and color management, APC does ring a bell. Hehe!

Good to hear that APC rings a bell Very Happy Hopefully a posiitve bell hehe
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presstech

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:13 pm

Very positive! APC provides something really needed in the Philippine printing industry today- TRAINING. Very Happy
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billy

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Mon Apr 28, 2008 9:47 am

Pardon me if I created a Cloud.

But the truth about SCGM and 4 companies and Transprints reminds of a company giving a good services in print standardization and Color management. This company conducted many seminars and I have attended some of those seminars. And it is pretty good and they are well verse about CMS and ISO.
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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:03 am

APC, can you please tell me more about yourself. I'm quite interested to know what are your qualifications and how do we can get to become ISO 12647 compliant. I've spoken to my boss and was instructed to find out more like how do we get in touch with you.
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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Tue Apr 29, 2008 1:14 am

sir billy, which company are you referring to. baka pwede din humingi ng tulong yung company namin sa kanila. meron kayo kayang contact details nila? ty po!
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APC

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Thu May 01, 2008 12:38 pm

SuperTrooper wrote:
APC, can you please tell me more about yourself. I'm quite interested to know what are your qualifications and how do we can get to become ISO 12647 compliant. I've spoken to my boss and was instructed to find out more like how do we get in touch with you.

Hi SuperTrooper,

Thanks for your post. Of course we can discuss the things you mention. I would be happy to provide you with the info you need. You can contact me by e-mail on:
frits@asianprintmedia.com or frits.beurskens@gmail.com

Or if you want, you can contact me directly on my cellphone on:
nr. 0917 505 8198

Do not hesitate to contact me

Thanks and best regards
Frits Beurskens
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SuperTrooper

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Fri May 02, 2008 7:44 pm

thank you mr. frits for the visiting us this afternoon. it was a very enlightening discussion. you surprise me at first, thought you're a pinoy but you turn out to be a "farang" (that's what they call you in thailand)... hehehehe.... don't worry it's not a bad word, thais just have difficulty to pronounce "foreigner"

upon our discussion it turn out to be a lot of work we need to do. all the while we thought it is straight forward as calibrating the monitor, print the IT8 target and that will be it.

no wonder our present vendor have been trying to put in the color management for us for the past 2 months and we still are getting unpredictable results. one job matches and the next won't. i'm now starting to have a lot of reservations about this vendor. it's either they don't know what their doing or they are just playing with us.

looks like my responsibility would be further increased, more research, more study, more sleepless nights, but this challenge sure feels exciting. and i feel even more excited after the lengthy meeting with APC.

mr. frits, as you may have already seen from this afternoon's meeting, the management is willing to explore the possibility of retaining your services but please help me justify. i'm very very impressed with your knowledge and i would like our management to get your services if we can afford. you really open my eyes wide, just like yours... joke! Shocked
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APC

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun May 04, 2008 10:40 am

Hi SuperTrooper,

Thanks for your post. I have to thank you and your boss for the invitation to visit your company. Although we could not discuss everything in the time we had but I am happy to hear that you understand so well. As I already mentioned during my visit, ISO certification is not so easy as some vendors want you to believe. It is more than just buying a piece of software. Telling you that buying a piece of software is certifiying your company for ISO 12647 is just telling a fairytale. ISO 12647 is about getting control on your whole process and not only on the proof. A "certified proof" does not mean that you can match that proof. In principle you still have the same problem as before. You still cannot match the proof. I have experienced in other countries in the region that certain so-called ISO consultants/experts tell these stories to their customers with only one goal which is selling their product. You cannot be a consultant and at the same time sell your product. Than you are a salesman Twisted Evil A consultant should be independent.
Anyway, ISO certification (or standardization in general) cannot be done in only a few days. It takes time and depends on the actual situation of your company. That is why I suggested to do an audit for your company first, which will give a clear view on your actual situation. From there on we can work on a plan of action to bring your company to a ISO certification.
That is, in my opinion the the most logic and realistic way to go.
Unfortunately I cannot be present on the 14th because I am out of town for a project, but I am sure we can exchange information on the forum and others might share their experiences and questions too.
Looking forward to see you again soon. Very Happy
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Sandman

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PostSubject: Re: WHAT IS ISO 12647 BA TALAGA?   Sun May 04, 2008 1:48 pm

Very well said, APC. It really does take some time before the actual ISO audit takes place. That's why a pre-audit is necessary.

ISO is literally standardization wherein for each critical to quality parameter ( i.e., color values, tone value, tone value sum, register, etc..) we have a measurable aim plus/minus some tolerance.

Because the certification is objective process control elements and the devices to measure it are very important.

The idea is if we cannot measure.....we cannot control.
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